« Deceit | Main | Successor to Peter? »
April 10, 2005
The Reformation
Did the Reformation matter? Was it necessary? Do we have one High Priest? Are we admitted to the Kingdom of God because of the merits of anyone other than the Lord Jesus? Are we saints or do we need the proclamation of an earthly origin to establish sainthood? Are we Protestants? What does that mean? It meant a lot at one time. It cost people their lives. In light of the events of the past couple weeks; these are questions that serious thinking people should be thinking about.
Go read the account of Jesus' rebuke of a mother out to get her two sons high places in His kingdom in Matt 20:20-28. Peter is doing high speed revolutions in his grave over what has beeen going on this past week.
Ok let me have it!
Posted by Dennis at April 10, 2005 02:41 PM
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Comments
I think the reformation in the West was absolutley neccesary and it had been taking place since pentecost. Most of the problems I have with the reformation is that it went too far in some aspects and not far enough in others. There is lip service paid to scripture being the final authority but in reality the final authority is what the individual makes of what scripture is saying in their mind. Because of this the reformation unleashed division upon division, upon division. While Luther set out to bring the western church back to the orthodox faith of Ambrose, Chrysostom, Augustine, Athanasius, and Aquinas he was unable to do so. His followers understood the neccesity of the episocpacy because they understood that the church is coperate and the church is visible. After being able to reconcile with the Bishops in the East the Lutherans set up their own episcopacy which has largely been abandoned for the reformed model. In the East they don't talk of reformation as much as they due realignment.
As for what has happened in Rome this last week. I don't know, my problems are more with the theology of the church than the ceramony. Peter would certainly have been familiar with the ceramony, and grandness of the temple (gold figures, robes, music, etc). I was talking with an Orthodox priest the other day and all he could do was talk about what a heretic this pope was. All I could think was "Lord have mercy on me" knowing how messed up I am myself.
The problem isn't the patriarchy, it is the heterdox theology. The problem isn't the ceramony, it is the idea that this man had universal jurisdiction over all the worlds Bishops. A reading of the golden mouthed Bishop Chrysostom illustrates that in the within the first few hundred years of the church it was recognised that there would be bad people in the episcopacy and the priesthood. The Bishop of Alexandria (one the reformed christians hold as authorative when it comes to which books would make up scriptutre) was contra mundum (against the world) fighting the Arian heresy which sprung up amongst the Bishops. The great Bishop Augustine wrote that there would be wolves in the church.
The English reformation was by far the best of the reformation. The Anglicans retained a memory of the church prior to Roman domination. When they reformed they sought to re-establish that same church prior to Augustines arrival to the British isles. Luther being a good Roman Catholic really sided heavily with the Western Fathers (though he used the Eastern Church as the model for Christ Church) and because of that Lutherans retain a heavily Augustinian theology. Calvin took a bit from every western father to formulate his theology. Wesley barrowed extensively from the Eastern Fathers but balanced that out with his Western theology to produce a church that was much closer to that of Methodius and Cyril than that of classical western reformed churches.
Posted by: David L at April 11, 2005 10:09 AM
As far as the title "Protestant" it meant something quite a bit different 500 years ago than it does today. The Jeanie has been taken out of the bottle, since it is okay to be in rebellion to the church, even nobole by American standards, there will be this further fracturing. I think what is important to you as a protestant today is much different than what was important 500 years ago. for instance 500 years ago sola scriptura meant something very much different than it does today. In alot of ways things aren't that different between protestants and the catholic traditions. The protestans recognize the heroic faith of men like Billy Graham, Johnathan Edwards, Hooker, etc. They have been sainted, sure it is in a less formal measure but it has happened none the less. The West has always made a big deal out of canonization requiring all sorts of special conditions. The East has a much simpler, much less formal proccess. The saints aren't to be celebrated so much for what they did but rather as examples of what God can do in a pagan like Augustine, in martyr's like those of the Boxer Rebellion, or an evangelist in the wilds of Alaska (St. Herman). Our promise is in what God will and can do in us. The problem in the East is that many people have bought onto what the Roman Catholics believe, a sypmtom of being isolated from the mother churches. Yesterday I was reading the icon of St. Herman to Renee at Church. I was explaining how St. Herman came to Alaske from Russia and evangelised the Aluets and Eskimos. He created worship in their langauge, he helped them to retain their own culture within the contexts of being Christians. I told her some day God may use her to share the good news about Jesus with other people. Contrast that with youth groups where the object of affection is the drummer from "Third Day".
I read a quote from an Eastern Orthodox theologian who said that the West will become Orthodox when she begins to love all her Saints. I really believe that is true. But then that also apples to the East, she will become Orthodox when she begins to love her Western Saints. We need to get back to that one church, Christ prayed that the church would be one and it is anything but. So either the church is temporarily fragmented or the church Christ established still exist and the rest are all in schism. No matter what the church needs to always be reforming but not neccesarily changing.
Posted by: David L at April 11, 2005 10:35 AM
I was thinking earlier as I was finally able to watch the funeral, during St. Peter's time the church was undr heavy persecution. It's just speculation but perhaps he would celebrate the victory the church has had over the pagan cultures.
I share a suspicion of Roman Catholicism but I was wondering based on the cathechism of the Roman Catholic church what points you have a problem with. That might make for an interesting discussion.
Posted by: David L at April 11, 2005 07:18 PM
Victory over the pagan culture? I missed that one. I don't see the world as a more God centered place now than it was then.
Specifically the council of Trent declaration, never rescinded by John Paul II
CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
This was a clear denoucement of the recovery of the gospel made by the Reformers that nothing in our hand we bring, simply to His cross we cling. Naked come to thee for dress. Wash me Saviour or I die.
Posted by: Dennis at April 11, 2005 08:15 PM
Dennis wrote…”In light of the events of the past couple weeks; these are questions that serious thinking people should be thinking about.”
And believe me, I have been thinking about it. The short story is yes, the Reformation mattered and it was necessary. But, today? I think Luther would be in dismay at what it appears he wrought.
Take this scenario; find someone who has never heard of Christianity, one who has never experienced religion of any kind and doesn’t have a clue as to denominations or sects. You know…your neighbor. Now explain it to him. The whole explanation, complete with Bible verses to explain how the church should look today. Now tell him about the 5,000 various denominations and then all about the cults that call themselves Christians. Now ask him to believe, to come and join us…
What I saw this past week in the news was a world without a “Reformation”. If you were a Buddhist, the only story you would see or hear was that the pope represented Christianity. The pope is presented as the Leader of the Church and there is no sidebar to explain the Reformation to the casual reader.
Posted by: Steven at April 12, 2005 05:36 AM
"Victory over the pagan culture? I missed that one. I don't see the world as a more God centered place now than it was then"
Yes, victory over the pagan culture, not a final or absolute victory but a victory none the less. I am much more optomistic about the world, I see a rabbi that had little money, traveled little, and was killed in a humiliating way. yet his name is better known than any on earth. The Gospel is pronounced all over the world. I think Christians could be doing more. St. John Chrysostom wisely said that "The desire to rule is the mother of all heresy" With all these Bishops and Elders wanting to be in charge of their own church or churches the great commision has been lost or often relegated to a secondary concern.
As for the reformation having only the Cross that is a nice thought but not reality. The reformation carried on the tradition of aligning the church with the government. In the day's of the early episcopacy you had the Bishops trying to evade the duty of Overseer, often the government would appoint them and rather than trying to hold lofty office they ran from it. Luther tried to persuade the church from making unholy alliances with the government but it was for not.
Posted by: David L at April 12, 2005 11:04 PM
Don't get me started with Luther. Luther would have a fit over the end of his reformation and how what he started was so wildly twisted into an anarchist free for all. The reformation started the picking and choosing of theology and relegated Holy Scripture to a lessor authority than one's intellect. If you look at the groups who actually hold to the Lutheran Confessions they wouldn't even worship or pray with the reformed.
I do have people I run into on a daily basis who aren't christians and I am asked to explain why I believe what I believe. To understand what the church is and isn't, what makes Christianity the true faith while the others are false religion takes some effort. In fast food society there really isn't an appetite for anything deep. Read what Athanasius wrote at 19 and see if any 19 year old today could even understand it.
What I saw at the funeral was a ritual that to some was a mindless action and to others was a heartfelt expression. I listened to the broadcasters with no theological or historical training explain what was going on and making theological statements. Did you catch that the Unate, Melkite, and Assyrian Christians were identified as Eastern Orthodox? That was a blunder. The symbolic head of the Eastern Orthodox church was there but in the audience and not even in vestments because he didn't want anyone getting the impression that the two churches are unified or that the Eastern church is this lung that John Paul spoke of frequently.
How could there be a sidebar regarding the reformation? Which one and led by who? The reformation according to who?
We can't count of the media to get the Gospel out there. It is up to each and everyone of us to do that in our vocations, by word and deed. I think the saddest thing about last week was that the message that God loves us so much that he took flesh, died and rose three day's latter was lost in the talk of who would be the next Pope. I am sure that is not what John Paul would have wanted but then it was beyond his control.
Posted by: David L at April 12, 2005 11:37 PM